Posts by Five Gospels

27

Atheists are a cult

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i have seen that statement quite a bit in the past few days.. why do people believe that's true?

Five Gospels

gravedancer,

Perhpas we all need to agree on a common definition of the word CULT. I propose we use this one:

Yes, yes! young master gravedancer, you learn quickly... agreement on definitions leads to meaningful discourse.

It is apparent that the word "cult" needs a common definition. All kinds of semantics are being played with it

Oh yes! We must not fall prey to the illicit use of language... Yoda, could gravedancer be... [Yoda] "Yes... logic in this one... very strong sense I..."

But wait...

gravedancer says:

Perry,
Your thread centered on the notion that "there is no escape from religion.
quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------
I dealt with this question in a thread I started here:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=22556&site=3
...While I concede that athiesm is just as logically valid
a position as theism, I have always wondered why it's
promoters usually avoid provocative discussion of its
effects on society and the individual
----------------------------------------------------------------
Oh Perry, who answered your thread first? I did. I grant that the response was short but here it is:
quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------
There is a consequential difference between theists and atheists.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Did you respond to that? No. But then you come and spout stuff like I just quoted above. The gist of my reply is simple and alludes directly to why atheism's "promoters usually avoid provocative discussion of its effects on society and the individual."

So atheism's promoters usually avoid provocative discussion of its effects on society and the individual because there is a consequential difference between theists and atheists.

In other words, there is a difference between atheism's promoters and theism's promoters because... well... because there is a consequential difference between theists and atheists...

[silence...]

But why Yoda?... [Yoda, shaking his head in disappointment] "He is not the one..."

Sorry gravedancer, you were off to such a good start. I'll give you an 'A' for effort though.

By the way, will you ever respond to my posts at:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=22539&site=3
or should I just remove my bookmark to that thread?

Oops... I almost forgot... my opinion is that atheism is not a cult (by your excellent definition of the term cult).

Five Gospels

70

Religiously inclined are Mentally Ill

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i raised this briefly in chat earlier today and i expect a similar response to this thread.. my opinion is that if you are religious/spiritual then you are mentally ill.

Five Gospels

gravedancer,

You said:

Unless 5 Gospels agrees to it please do not use the term "insanity".

Actually, I will accept "insanity" because by definition one who is insane is "mentally ill." But thanks for considering my feelings.

Then you said:

5 gospels has to give permission to change the meaning or clarify it.

You have permission to clarify at any time, but not to change the meaning. Contrary to how you may have construed one of my previous comments, I'm not imposing my own personal rules here. To use an example from elementary logic, I might contend that people living in Miami are blessed with beautiful Florida weather. You, being the astute analytical type, may point out that some days in Florida are rainy or cold or that there are hurricanes. To this I reply: "Ah! But that is not what I mean by Florida weather!" So my response begs the question: what do I mean by Florida weather? If I do this so that my case can never be refuted, then I am guilty of introducing a fallacy of presumption, namely a question-begging definition. The possibility of finding an exception must always be present when making a generalization. If your reasoning is sound, then no disconfirmation will be forthcoming. In an earlier post you said:

No one has taken on the definition of mental illness so far. Is mental illness the same as mental imbalance? Is it the same as mental instability?
I believe it is...
That is why I answer that anyone who puts their life on hold or lives for some belief system (instead of themselves) is unbalanced mentally.

There are many things wrong with this (notwithstanding the fact that you present your belief without any evidence whatsoever). However, my main concern is that you are equating persons who are "unbalanced mentally" with those who are "mentally ill." It is here that I get the sense that the possibility of finding an exception to your assertion (religious inclination implies mental illness) is not present. For, what other qualities or behaviors might you believe mental illness "is the same as?" With such fluid terms, one could rightfully contend that someone who watches too much television and neglects spending quality time with her or his family is unbalanced mentally - thus "proving" that such persons are mentally ill.

You said:

Please be sure to bow down to 5 gospels when you humbly ask to be allowed to use the term "insanity". It is "mental illness" being discussed here - not "insanity".

No. As you previously stated, it is your assertion that religious inclination implies mental illness that is being discussed here.

You also said:

Thou shalt not REDEFINE the phrase!!!!

Yes. Thank you very much. I don't see how anybody can have a meaningful discussion if terms and phrases are being redefined. Do you?

I thank you also for posting your definition of mental illness. Now that we have that out of the way, let's return to your claim:

I made an assertion that people who base and run their whole lives on something that requires faith or belief (not fact) can be classified as mentally ill.

For the third and last time, on what grounds do you make such an absurd assertion?

You should note that this is not even as difficult to prove as your general (and more tenuous) claim that religious inclination implies mental illness - in which case you must demonstrate that, in general, people with religious inclinations "base and run their whole lives on something that requires faith or belief."

Five Gospels

70

Religiously inclined are Mentally Ill

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i raised this briefly in chat earlier today and i expect a similar response to this thread.. my opinion is that if you are religious/spiritual then you are mentally ill.

Five Gospels

You said:

No one has taken on the definition of mental illness so far. Is mental illness the same as mental imbalance? Is it the same as mental instability?
I believe it is...

This is both a red herring and a deliberate attempt to introduce a question-begging definition of the term "mental illness." This is nothing more than an illegitimate removal of your argument from the level of factual discourse to a purely linguistic plane. You are attempting to redefine this term in such a way that your contention cannot possibly be falsified. Most of the posters here are intelligent enough not to fall into your feeble language trap! Why do YOU refuse to defend your assertion that belief is warranted only if it is based on fact and that anyone who believes otherwise is mentally ill?

You then said:

That is why I answer that anyone who puts their life on hold or lives for some belief system (instead of themselves) is unbalanced mentally.

Nice try but I won't allow you to redefine your terms. Let's stick with your original assertion:

I made an assertion that people who base and run their whole lives on something that requires faith or belief (not fact) can be classified as mentally ill.

Again, I say on what grounds do you make such an absurd assertion? (See my previous post.) You seem to be either unwilling or incapable of defending your assertion. Thus, its not the case that you are naïve as I proposed earlier but you are either stubborn or ignorant - or perhaps even mentally ill... hmmm.

Finally, you said:

What can't the defenders understand? It's ok to admit that you are unbalanced...we won't hate you for it.

This defender will concede to no such thing until you can adequately defend your contention while obeying the simple rules of logic.

What can't you understand? It's OK to admit that your argument is hopelessly flawed... we won't hate you for it.

Five Gospels

70

Religiously inclined are Mentally Ill

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i raised this briefly in chat earlier today and i expect a similar response to this thread.. my opinion is that if you are religious/spiritual then you are mentally ill.

Five Gospels

gravedancer,

You said:

When someone hears voices in their head and they listen to the voices is that person mentally ill?
When someone has an imaginary friend and the talk to the imaginary person, are they are mentally ill?
When someone lives their whole life and bases all their decisions and actions on what they think ("believe") some God tried to tell them (in most cases based on some ancient book), is that person mentally ill?
How are the 3 people different? Which one of them has a better basis for their actions?

I'll tell you how these three are different. The first person my very well have some kind of mental illness as this is more or less a textbook definition. In the second case, mental illness doesn't necessarily follow from this type of behavior. Some children, for example, have very real imaginary friends. As for the third person, try replacing the word "God" with "nation" or "ideology" and try asking yourself the same question. Many people do in fact base all their decisions and actions on some particular ideology and have "faith" that it is the "truth" or the best way of life for themselves and others. Must all convictions be grounded in absolute fact?

You also said:

I made an assertion that people who base and run their whole lives on something that requires faith or belief (not fact) can be classified as mentally ill.

On what grounds do you make such an absurd assertion? First you implicitly make an assertion that belief is warranted only if it is based on fact. This type of epistemology is known as Evidentialism. You are now treading in the domain of philosophy and metaphysics where one finds many schools of thought. For example, one rejection of Evidentialism is Reformed Epistemology, which holds that beliefs are warranted without evidence, provided they are grounded and defended against known objections. Of course, another may reject what one asserts as a well-grounded belief. My point is, that for you to make a clearly philosophical assertion that belief must always be based on concrete fact, and treat it (i.e. your assertion) as though it is a self-evident fact, is naive to say the least. Secondly, for you to explicitly assert that people who base their lives on something that requires belief (as opposed to evidence) may be classified as mentally ill is tantamount to saying that anybody who does not share your philosophical world-view, your own a priori convictions and your particular epistemological criteria, in short, anybody who does not think as you think is mentally ill!

I submit that you are not really that naive but you are trying to create a controversy for you own personal enjoyment. It appears as though you have succeeded.

Five Gospels

92

How many hours are falsely reported?

by badboy in

jw
friends

in the january 1 issue of each year, they harp on about how many hours the jws did last year etc etc.. how many hours are possibly falsely reported?.

discuss,please

Five Gospels

Leander said:

I could be wrong about this but lately I've been thinking that the reason the WTBS is so insistent on every JW being involved in the preaching work is so that they can force a prophecy into fulfilment.

You are exactly right! Have you ever noticed how they take Matt. 28:19 and 20 and call it a prophecy being fulfilled today by Jehovah's Witnesses at one moment and then call it a commission the next when they are trying to compel everyone to be involved in the preaching work! Which is it! Well, whatever it is, I'm sure Jesus didn't have in mind the false gospel being carried out by JWs today.

F G

16

WTS v. Stratton

by Marvin Shilmer in

jw
friends

february 2002 issue of the american lawyer .

supreme advocacy: church of free speech, by tony mauro.

god doesn't have an interest in that.

Five Gospels

Just a little 'FYI' on the no trespassing thing...

The latest "direction from the Society" on this matter is that witnesses are to avoid homes having "Posted - No Trespassing" signs. Although I haven’t seen anything in writing yet (Wt mags.) this is the instruction being propagated through the congregation elders since roughly Fall 2001.

Five Gospels

20

did jesus really exist??

by master chief in

jw
friends

i wonder if jesus did exist?i just wanted to know if having faith that he did is enough,i mean i like to have you know concrete proof about things and there isnt much proof he existed except that in the bible,maybe he was just another wannabe prophet,just think what people believe in today like faith healers they supposedly have healing powers,believers claim to be healed then later resume back to there normal condition etc etc.

is it all in there mind and they want it to be real they believe it so much that they think there cured even though there not you see wat im getting at people might of thought about jesus the same way like maybe looking for a hope in this healer or prophet and then claiming to be better because they were maybe over emotional about jesus.

Five Gospels

Rem,

I have not found any evidence to substantiate the Bible's claim that Jesus existed. I'm curious to hear what evidence you have found that supports this claim.

Since I'm a "newbie" and hence little is known about my viewpoints, let me start by saying that I am not attempting to debate or prove any spiritual aspects of Jesus. I also realize that there is limited historical evidence to establish Jesus' existence, and I don't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.

This is simply a reply to your post asking me to provide some evidence that I have found supportive of the claim that Jesus was a historical person.

These are: the Writings of Cornelius Tacitus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas (Roman historians), Flavius Josephus (Jewish historian), Thallus, two references made to a report on the crucifixion by Pontius Pilate from Justin Martyr and Tetullian, refernces in the Talmud, and Caiaphas' burial cave (excavated in 1990). These establish historic evidence that a man named Jesus lived, died, and was later deified in a time and a place described in the New Testament.

Also, there are many scholarly works that others have provided links to.

I find this evidence compelling enough to believe that a historical figure (named Jesus) existed and that this figure seems to correspond to the Jesus characterized in the New Testament... it may or may not be compelling enough for you.

FG

26

gay cartoon characters

by gilwarrior in

has anyone ever spotted a gay cartoon character?

i firmly believe that peppermint patty in the "peanuts" cartoons was gay.

she was pretty much a tomboy and did you ever notice that patty's friend marcy always called her "sir" even though patty was a girl?

Five Gospels

The "ambiguously gay duo" as seen on Saturday Night Live.

20

did jesus really exist??

by master chief in

jw
friends

i wonder if jesus did exist?i just wanted to know if having faith that he did is enough,i mean i like to have you know concrete proof about things and there isnt much proof he existed except that in the bible,maybe he was just another wannabe prophet,just think what people believe in today like faith healers they supposedly have healing powers,believers claim to be healed then later resume back to there normal condition etc etc.

is it all in there mind and they want it to be real they believe it so much that they think there cured even though there not you see wat im getting at people might of thought about jesus the same way like maybe looking for a hope in this healer or prophet and then claiming to be better because they were maybe over emotional about jesus.

Five Gospels

What do you mean by "exist?" Are you asking whether a man named Jesus of Nazareth walked the earth roughly two millennia ago and sparked a religious movement that later became known as Christianity, or are you wondering whether Jesus (God) or Jesus (the only begotten son - a created divine being) was real?

The former seems to be well substantiated (even from non-Biblical sources) while the latter is subject to many different interpretations and much debate.

I am convinced that he was a historical person and I can't ignore the possibility that he was a special messenger for God. However, I often find myself asking this question: who created the Christian Jesus (as characterized by Christianity)... God or man?

FG

1

Writing a letter - looking for address

by Five Gospels in

jw
friends

i would like to write the society about its un/dpi association.

(realizing that i will most likely get a form letter response.).

i was wondering which address most people here have found useful for this purpose.

Five Gospels

I would like to write the Society about its UN/DPI association. (Realizing that I will most likely get a form letter response.)

I was wondering which address most people here have found useful for this purpose. Also, has anyone <b>not</b> received a reply regarding this issue? Should I send my letter via registered mail? (So they can't claim they never got it.)

Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

FG